Hi
My next task is to find out why my batteries won't charge. I have 1 starter battery and 3 110amp Leisure batteries.
Since buying Sapphire the rev counter has not worked and I have replaced the old Lucas split charge relay and fitted an Argo Fet Diode model 702 made by Surepower Industries.
I have now in the last week replaced the Alternator and when finished I had 14.5 to 15volts going into the batteries and the rev counter was even working,..... I was well happy and job done, I left the boat running, but once I got everything cleared away I noticed the batteries were no longer charging and the rev counter had stopped working again.
Sometimes on the odd occasion when trying to start the engine the starter moter just clicks before before starting the engine, but this has only happened once or twice and the only thing I can think of now is that I might have a poor earth connection somewhere, but I am not too sure.
Has anyone had a similar problem or could shed some light as to what my problem could be I could now do with some advice.
Thanks
Ray
Battery Charging
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lazyoldriverer
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:01 pm
- Location: Sunbury on Thames
Battery Charging
If its a modern alternator, it has a built in regulator that only works if there is an alternator warning light, if this fails the regulator switches off, no charging. Now your situation is complicated by the Argo split diode system, I have not had personal experience but there is a voltage drop over the diode and there may be need of some sort of compensation technique.
so that the regulator works with the split charge system
Link below alternator explains warning light
Link Adverc talks about their Split Charge unit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator
http://www.adverc.co.uk/batterymanagement/split-charging-systems
you may need to talk to Surepower
Regards
so that the regulator works with the split charge system
Link below alternator explains warning light
Link Adverc talks about their Split Charge unit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator
http://www.adverc.co.uk/batterymanagement/split-charging-systems
you may need to talk to Surepower
Regards
Battery Charging
Hi Terry
Thanks for your reply,
Yes it is a new type Alternator with built in regulator and yes there is also a alternator warning light that funnily enough goes off when the engine is running, but it didn't used to when I had the old split charge system.
I have already read the link on Alternators and I am pretty much up to speed on them, but the Adverc site is very interesting and is good reading. In the last week I have recharged the starter battery and ran the boat a couple of times and yes you are also right I have not lost any charge in the starter battery so point proved when you say the starter battery only starts the engine.
I was a bit unsure about the Surepower Diode, but was told it would be ok by my local Chandlery,... however having read the Adverc link I would be happy to go back to a simple split charge relay, but not one like I had before.
I would quite be happy to try the Adverc relay, would you recommend one, if so where can I get one.
One last thing, would the rev counter work if I changed the relay only when I first bought Sapphire it did only work some of the time.
Regards
Ray
Thanks for your reply,
Yes it is a new type Alternator with built in regulator and yes there is also a alternator warning light that funnily enough goes off when the engine is running, but it didn't used to when I had the old split charge system.
I have already read the link on Alternators and I am pretty much up to speed on them, but the Adverc site is very interesting and is good reading. In the last week I have recharged the starter battery and ran the boat a couple of times and yes you are also right I have not lost any charge in the starter battery so point proved when you say the starter battery only starts the engine.
I was a bit unsure about the Surepower Diode, but was told it would be ok by my local Chandlery,... however having read the Adverc link I would be happy to go back to a simple split charge relay, but not one like I had before.
I would quite be happy to try the Adverc relay, would you recommend one, if so where can I get one.
One last thing, would the rev counter work if I changed the relay only when I first bought Sapphire it did only work some of the time.
Regards
Ray
Last edited by cazray on Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Battery Charging
Hi Ray,
Here's my 2p's worth if you are interested. BTW I have tried all of the listed options.
Facts:
(1) A diode will always have a 700 mV voltage drop across its terminals.
(2) The nominal output voltage of a standard car alternator is 14.4 Volts.
This means that your batteries will only be charged to 13.7 volts with a diode. Not a problem if you are cruising for a day and then overnighting. Can become a problem if you stop for 2 - 3 days.
The alternative to this is to take your alternator sense lead to the battery side of the diode. Your alternator is then thrashing away at 15.1 volts. Tends to run rather hot initially but you do have fully charged batteries.
Originally on going over to a split charger, I connected the charge relay in parallel with the charge light so that it only became active when there was sufficient voltage to activate the relay. This was OK until we started doing long overnight runs from Teddington to the Medway. There was always an annoying glimmer from the charge light. I now switch the charge relay with the ignition switch. This also brings in the 12 volt side of the fridge. I got a 120 amp relay on ebay.
If you are having problems with your starter motor, I got mine rebuilt at Roy's Electrics, Charlton Village, Middlesex.
Happy boating
Phil Watson
Here's my 2p's worth if you are interested. BTW I have tried all of the listed options.
Facts:
(1) A diode will always have a 700 mV voltage drop across its terminals.
(2) The nominal output voltage of a standard car alternator is 14.4 Volts.
This means that your batteries will only be charged to 13.7 volts with a diode. Not a problem if you are cruising for a day and then overnighting. Can become a problem if you stop for 2 - 3 days.
The alternative to this is to take your alternator sense lead to the battery side of the diode. Your alternator is then thrashing away at 15.1 volts. Tends to run rather hot initially but you do have fully charged batteries.
Originally on going over to a split charger, I connected the charge relay in parallel with the charge light so that it only became active when there was sufficient voltage to activate the relay. This was OK until we started doing long overnight runs from Teddington to the Medway. There was always an annoying glimmer from the charge light. I now switch the charge relay with the ignition switch. This also brings in the 12 volt side of the fridge. I got a 120 amp relay on ebay.
If you are having problems with your starter motor, I got mine rebuilt at Roy's Electrics, Charlton Village, Middlesex.
Happy boating
Phil Watson
Battery Charging
Hello Phil
Firstly I have a 70amp Alternator with built in regulator, it has one connection terminal with 2 red positive leads and a smaller orange lead that I presume to be the earth,.... or could it be the sense lead ??.... now I'm thinking. There is also another small green lead that connects to the back of the alternator that goes off to the rev counter that doesn't work either.
When the Lucas relay was fitted the orange light on my dash was always on until my batteries were charged and it didn't normally take very long, but then I noticed the leisure batteries were being drained very quickly and it turned out one battery was not holding charge as I took it home charged it up to around 13 volts, but after a couple of hours off charge the readings went down to 10.4 volts so I ended up buying two more 110 Amp batteries to go with the one good one and fit the Argo Fet Diode that I bought last year.
When fitting the Diode I checked the Amps from the Alternator with a multimeter and was getting readings around the 70amp mark when revving the engine, however after breaking down I carried out the same test, but couldn't get a reading and at this point my batteries were pretty flat as it was a few days after our trip from Oundle to Peterborough.
I then got the new Alternator, fitted it and immediately was getting readings on my dash of 14.5 to 15 volts on both battery banks and a rev counter that worked and that was without having to use the Multimeter, but as mentioned earlier a short time later I had no charge going to the batteries and no rev counter so I am thinking along the lines that it might be a regulator issue as mentioned by Terry on Lazyoldriverer because like i've said the Alternetor is new.
I'm still think about binning the Surepower Diode, but what would you recommend as a good alternative ?
Ray
Firstly I have a 70amp Alternator with built in regulator, it has one connection terminal with 2 red positive leads and a smaller orange lead that I presume to be the earth,.... or could it be the sense lead ??.... now I'm thinking. There is also another small green lead that connects to the back of the alternator that goes off to the rev counter that doesn't work either.
When the Lucas relay was fitted the orange light on my dash was always on until my batteries were charged and it didn't normally take very long, but then I noticed the leisure batteries were being drained very quickly and it turned out one battery was not holding charge as I took it home charged it up to around 13 volts, but after a couple of hours off charge the readings went down to 10.4 volts so I ended up buying two more 110 Amp batteries to go with the one good one and fit the Argo Fet Diode that I bought last year.
When fitting the Diode I checked the Amps from the Alternator with a multimeter and was getting readings around the 70amp mark when revving the engine, however after breaking down I carried out the same test, but couldn't get a reading and at this point my batteries were pretty flat as it was a few days after our trip from Oundle to Peterborough.
I then got the new Alternator, fitted it and immediately was getting readings on my dash of 14.5 to 15 volts on both battery banks and a rev counter that worked and that was without having to use the Multimeter, but as mentioned earlier a short time later I had no charge going to the batteries and no rev counter so I am thinking along the lines that it might be a regulator issue as mentioned by Terry on Lazyoldriverer because like i've said the Alternetor is new.
I'm still think about binning the Surepower Diode, but what would you recommend as a good alternative ?
Ray
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lazyoldriverer
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:01 pm
- Location: Sunbury on Thames
Battery Charging
Ray
http://www.tb-training.co.uk/
Read through the Electrical Notes here, see if something twigs.
The problem with deciding on Battery Management Systems and using a split charge Relay, is that the knockers of the old relay system are trying to sell a Battery Management System (BMS) and all the old boat Electricians understand a split charge Relay, so dont recommend a bms.
If you are going to do all your own maintenance then when you get it working you will know how it works.
You have to break it three times to find out how to repair it !
http://www.tb-training.co.uk/
Read through the Electrical Notes here, see if something twigs.
The problem with deciding on Battery Management Systems and using a split charge Relay, is that the knockers of the old relay system are trying to sell a Battery Management System (BMS) and all the old boat Electricians understand a split charge Relay, so dont recommend a bms.
If you are going to do all your own maintenance then when you get it working you will know how it works.
You have to break it three times to find out how to repair it !
Battery Charging
Hi Terry
Your an absolute star !!! I once stumbled across that site and think it's brilliant, but I didn't add it to my favourites and forgot what it was called so thank you very much for sending me that link.
You also made me laugh talking about the knockers of the old relay systems, as I bought the Argo Fet Diode upon recomendation from the guys at Oundle Marina because it's "what they use at Fairline" (Oundle marina is owned by Fairline, but is currently up for sale).
I also read one or two articles saying that the old relays could be dangerous and can cause fire and that helped twist my arm and buy the Argo Fet Diode, plus if my good lady saw smoke she'd just panic and jump overboard without asking any questions (and yes that might sound a nice thought, but then who will make the coffee !!).
With regards to general maintainance I do want to carry out all the repairs myself because I've always been able to turn my hand to just about anything,.... but then saying that I also know my limits and that I think is important, plus it could help if you get stuck out on the river and of course it can save you a few pennies.
I've not had time to go back down to Sapphire, but having spoken to an auto electrical specialist it may be that I need to take the orange lead from the alternator and connect it to a live wire as I'm led to believe the alternator needs a small amount of power in order to work and it was previously getting it from the old Lucas relay.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Ray
Your an absolute star !!! I once stumbled across that site and think it's brilliant, but I didn't add it to my favourites and forgot what it was called so thank you very much for sending me that link.
You also made me laugh talking about the knockers of the old relay systems, as I bought the Argo Fet Diode upon recomendation from the guys at Oundle Marina because it's "what they use at Fairline" (Oundle marina is owned by Fairline, but is currently up for sale).
I also read one or two articles saying that the old relays could be dangerous and can cause fire and that helped twist my arm and buy the Argo Fet Diode, plus if my good lady saw smoke she'd just panic and jump overboard without asking any questions (and yes that might sound a nice thought, but then who will make the coffee !!).
With regards to general maintainance I do want to carry out all the repairs myself because I've always been able to turn my hand to just about anything,.... but then saying that I also know my limits and that I think is important, plus it could help if you get stuck out on the river and of course it can save you a few pennies.
I've not had time to go back down to Sapphire, but having spoken to an auto electrical specialist it may be that I need to take the orange lead from the alternator and connect it to a live wire as I'm led to believe the alternator needs a small amount of power in order to work and it was previously getting it from the old Lucas relay.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Ray
Last edited by cazray on Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Battery Charging
I've now sorted out the problem where my batteries were not charging, basically the cable from the Alternator warning light on the dashboard that supplies a small current to the Alternator had a break or a loose connection, I discovered this by running a test wire from the Alternator warning light straight to the back of the Alternator,.... when I did everything fired back into life,... even the rev counter.
I was unable to find exactly where the wire had broken because it goes into a loom with loads of other wires and ends up in the engine compartment and from there it breaks or splits and the wire I was trying to trace then goes off behind the engine in a smaller loom with a couple of other wires.
I Ended up very carefully running a new cable from the Alternator warning light to the wire that I had coming out of the Alternator.
Touch wood everything should be fine now !!
Ray
I was unable to find exactly where the wire had broken because it goes into a loom with loads of other wires and ends up in the engine compartment and from there it breaks or splits and the wire I was trying to trace then goes off behind the engine in a smaller loom with a couple of other wires.
I Ended up very carefully running a new cable from the Alternator warning light to the wire that I had coming out of the Alternator.
Touch wood everything should be fine now !!
Ray
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lazyoldriverer
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:01 pm
- Location: Sunbury on Thames
Battery Charging
Yippe My first Guess was right Yippee